Breathwork instead of burnout: bootstrapping Glow25 to 130 million
with Rafael Frenk, Co-founder of Glow25, previously Primal State, business angel
Summary
In his first semester of business studies, Rafael Frenk was mugged one night at Berlin's Alexanderplatz: broken bones, a broken jaw, time in hospital. That's when he decided, at 22, to drop out and become an entrepreneur. What followed was a run of ideas that didn't work: a nonprofit marketing agency for charities, a drinking pouch for open-air parties, a party app. The turning point came when a friend showed him copywriting. Rafael copied out hundreds of pages of great sales copy by hand, and his launch campaign for the vitamin D product of his flatmate Janis at Primal State suddenly brought in a five-figure sum.
By 2020 Primal State had grown to around 3 million euros in revenue, but with 26 products for sleep, energy and sports the brand was spread too thin. An ABC analysis with adviser Volker Weinlein showed that 80 percent of customers bought collagen, and they bought it for beauty and ageing well. That became Glow25, named after the age at which collagen production starts to decline. In March 2021 the new brand ran head to head against Primal State's collagen, the team scaled to a daily ad budget of 10,000 euros over a single weekend, and six months later revenue stood at half a million euros.
„… es ist unmöglich, ein Produkt zu verkaufen, dessen Zeit noch nicht gekommen ist. Und es ist unmöglich, ein Produkt aufzuhalten, dessen Zeit gekommen ist.““It's impossible to sell a product whose time hasn't come yet. And it's impossible to stop a product whose time has come.”
The core of the episode is focus. Rafael explains why he cut Glow25's cosmetics line again, why he would rather be number one in one category in Germany than number five in five countries, and why the best product is simply called Collagen Intensive. According to Rafael, Glow25 now covers more than a third of the collagen market and is at 130 million this year. Growth was funded without investors but on the thinnest of margins: during the first hypergrowth phase the team discovered losses of several hundred thousand euros and introduced daily KPI tracking afterwards.
The last third is about the person behind the company: why company culture mirrors the founder's personality, why he should have parted ways with some employees much earlier, how breathwork helped him with conflicts among co-founders, and how the image of running on 5 percent emergency power helps him spot overload earlier. Finally Rafael talks about his days with guitar and martial arts, the social wellness club ANTI in Berlin, and the markets he finds exciting right now: creatine, electrolytes and menopause.
Numbers from the episode
4 more numbers
What the conversation was mostly about
Chapters
- 00:00Intro & from would-be Siemens manager to entrepreneurIntro
- 01:14100 million euros in revenue: the Glow25 storyIntro
- 01:53Mugged at Alexanderplatz: the big pivot at 22Path to entrepreneurship
- 05:40Wrong ideas: the failures before the breakthroughPath to entrepreneurship
- 10:20Copywriting is a craft: the game changerCopywriting & marketing
- 13:18The right vehicle: why the launch suddenly workedCopywriting & marketing
- 15:56Copywriting masterclass: how to learn sales copyCopywriting & marketing
- 18:29Biohacking & long-form content: the Primal State storyCopywriting & marketing
- 23:36The positioning mistake: avoiding target-audience chaosFocus & positioning
- 47:49Less is more: reaching 10 million euros with one productFocus & positioning
- 01:05:56The biggest cash-flow trap in hyper-scalingBootstrapping & cash flow
- 01:11:13Company culture: is your business a mirror of you?Culture & leadership
- 01:29:02Burnout & loneliness: the 5% emergency-power hackStress, loneliness & community
- 01:33:19How founders find their "home planet" (community)Stress, loneliness & community
- 01:35:15Rafael's daily life & his new project: social wellnessNew projects & ideas
- 01:51:52Quickfire: the next 100-million-euro e-commerce ideasNew projects & ideas
Key learnings
- 1
Treat entrepreneurship as a craft
For a long time Rafael thought founding was like throwing darts: throw an idea and hope it hits. Only when a friend showed him copywriting, video sales letters and sales pages did he realise selling can be trained. The better he got, the more his launches earned. So pick a core skill you sharpen over years instead of waiting for the one brilliant idea.
10:20 · Copywriting is a craft: the game changer - 2
Use the right vehicle on the right road
For months Rafael tried to sell his own online courses with modest results. Then he wrote the launch campaign for a vitamin D product that didn't exist in that form on Amazon yet, and it was about 20 times more successful. His image for it: a sports car on a gravel road. Often the problem isn't your skill but the market you apply it to.
13:18 · The right vehicle: why the launch suddenly worked - 3
Learn copywriting by copying
Rafael has copied out hundreds of pages of good sales copy by hand on paper. The same works for speeches: memorise a great speaker's keynote and deliver it two or three times, and you get a feel for cadence. Put several role models side by side and you see what they have in common.
15:56 · Copywriting masterclass: how to learn sales copy - 4
You are not your customer
At Primal State the team launched the products it thought were cool: biohacking, CrossFit athletes on the website, products for sleep, energy and sports. The result was an unsegmented newsletter that had to speak to 20- to 70-year-olds with completely different problems at once. Only an ABC analysis showed that 80 percent bought collagen, and for beauty. Look at your sales data and reviews, not at your own daily routine.
23:36 · The positioning mistake: avoiding target-audience chaos - 5
Ask what would happen with 100 times the effort
Rafael's tool for focus: what is working best right now, and where would you end up if you put 100 times more time or money into exactly that? That's how he cut Glow25's cosmetics line again. More cosmetics would have pitted the brand against L'Oréal, more collagen pointed towards becoming number one in Europe. A C product rarely becomes an A product, so double down on what already works.
23:36 · The positioning mistake: avoiding target-audience chaos - 6
Become number one in one category and name products dead simply
Rafael is convinced that in e-commerce you can make 10 million euros with a single repurchasable supplement. Glow25 would rather be number one in Germany than number five in five countries, and only then open further categories. The same goes for naming: instead of something like Peptide Pro Deluxe, the premium product is simply called Collagen Intensive, next to Collagen and Collagen Plus.
47:49 · Less is more: reaching 10 million euros with one product - 7
Know your numbers, every day
During Glow25's first hypergrowth phase the team looked at revenue in the ads manager and missed variable and fixed costs. In the summer they realised they had lost several hundred thousand euros. From then on Rafael wrote net revenue, new and returning customers, marketing spend and efficiency into a KPI sheet every morning, while his co-founder Nico planned cash flow and liquidity. That's how Glow25 grew profitably, if on the thinnest of margins.
01:05:56 · The biggest cash-flow trap in hyper-scaling - 8
Your company mirrors your personality, so part ways sooner
A mentor told Rafael that company culture is an expression of the founder's personality, including its unconscious sides. That's why Rafael and his co-founders have been in joint coaching since 2017. His biggest blind spot: he kept coaching underperforming employees for too long instead of making a clear decision. His rule of thumb today: the first time you wonder whether someone is still in the right role, it's usually already over.
01:11:13 · Company culture: is your business a mirror of you?
Quotes
„Man kann einen Sportwagen haben, aber auf einer Schotterstrecke sein. … Und häufig ist das, was du falsch machst, dass du das richtige Vehikel auf der falschen Strecke benutzt.““You can have a sports car and be on a gravel road. And often what you're doing wrong is using the right vehicle on the wrong road.”
„… es ist unmöglich, ein Produkt zu verkaufen, dessen Zeit noch nicht gekommen ist. Und es ist unmöglich, ein Produkt aufzuhalten, dessen Zeit gekommen ist.““It's impossible to sell a product whose time hasn't come yet. And it's impossible to stop a product whose time has come.”
„… ich bin eigentlich überzeugt, dass im E-Commerce-Supplement-Markt, du kannst 10 Millionen Euro mit einem Produkt auf jeden Fall machen, wenn das wieder verkaufbar ist.““I'm actually convinced that in the e-commerce supplement market you can definitely make 10 million euros with one product, as long as people buy it again.”
„… wenn du das erste Mal darüber nachdenkst, ob eine Person noch die richtige Rolle hat, ist meistens der Moment, wo es vorbei ist.““The first time you wonder whether someone is still in the right role is usually the moment it's over.”
„… ab jetzt laufe ich auf 5% Notstrom.““From now on I'm running on 5% emergency power.”
About the guest
Rafael Frenk
Rafael Frenk has been an entrepreneur since 2012. He originally wanted to become a top manager at Siemens, but after being robbed at Berlin's Alexanderplatz he dropped out of his business degree at 22. After several failed ideas he taught himself copywriting and joined Primal State, the biohacking brand of his then flatmate Janis. In 2021 that led to Glow25, a collagen brand for women which, according to the episode, grew to more than 100 million euros in revenue without investors. Today Rafael has stepped back from day-to-day operations, joins board meetings every two weeks, is lead investor in the Berlin social wellness club ANTI, invests as a business angel in female health and pet health, and is writing a book.
FAQ
What is Glow25?
Glow25 is a collagen brand for women that Rafael Frenk founded in 2021 with his business partners, growing out of Primal State. The name refers to the age at which collagen production starts to decline. According to Rafael, Glow25 covers more than a third of the collagen market and is category leader in Europe. The range goes from Collagen to Collagen Plus to Collagen Intensive.
How did Glow25 grow out of Primal State?
Primal State was a biohacking brand with 26 products and around 3 million euros in revenue. An ABC analysis showed that 80 percent of customers bought collagen, mostly for beauty and ageing well. So the team built a separate collagen-only brand aimed entirely at women and ran it against Primal State's collagen in March 2021. According to Rafael the new ads were 10 to 20 times more effective, and after six months revenue reached half a million euros.
Did Glow25 take on investors?
No, according to the episode Glow25 is bootstrapped. Earlier, at Primal State, the team ran a crowd-investing campaign of 1 million euros at a 10 million valuation, structured as a loan to be repaid. Today Glow25 has seven-figure bank loans, mainly for a new 8,500 square metre site for production, logistics and product development.
How does Rafael Frenk say you learn copywriting?
By copying and reciting. Rafael has copied out hundreds of pages of successful sales copy by hand. His tip: take two or three strong role models, rewrite or recite them word for word and compare what they have in common. He says he wrote the sales campaign for Collagen Intensive entirely himself in Google Docs, and it became a multi-million-euro launch.
What is ANTI in Berlin?
ANTI is a social wellness club at Brunnenstraße 9 in Berlin where Rafael is lead investor and shareholder. Two other founders run it. There are classes such as Pilates and yoga and a membership, but the business model rests mainly on events and community activations with health and wellness brands. At the time of recording Rafael was looking for co-investors for Oasis, a social spa with sauna, ice bath and social area.
How does Rafael Frenk deal with stress?
Rafael describes stress as a weight that grows with the company: the stronger you get, the more you load on. Breathwork, retreats and communities of like-minded people have helped him. His most pragmatic hack is an inner thermometer: he notices the moment he is running on 5 percent emergency power and is essentially working on credit. For his week he uses the Perfect Week Protocol and plans around the feelings he wants to experience.
Mentioned in this episode
- Primal StateCompanyBiohacking brand of Rafael's business partner Janis, which Glow25 grew out of.
- SiemensCompanyWhere Rafael originally wanted to become a top manager.
- Ole KanapinPersonFriend who introduced Rafael to copywriting and online launches.
- Jeff WalkerPersonMarketer whose online courses taught Rafael how to run launches.
- Frank KernPersonSecond US marketer Rafael learned from early on.
- Volker WeinleinPersonAdviser who prompted the ABC analysis and the sharp positioning.
- Albert WengerPersonUnion Square Ventures investor; his bicycle image for product-market fit is quoted in the conversation.
- Bill KaulitzPersonMajor Glow25 partnership that also runs with a discount code.
- Designed to ScaleBookBook by Lex Sisney; Rafael then hired the author as his org design mentor for three months.
- Radical CandorBookBook by Kim Scott on being caring and direct at the same time.
- Joe AdamsPersonUS business mentor Rafael met at a retreat in Jordan in 2022.
- ANTICompanySocial wellness club in Berlin where Rafael is lead investor.
- FinouCompanyFemale health brand Rafael has invested in.
- Beat81CompanyRafael's reference for a scalable studio concept he sees for Oasis.
